Our Talk With Renowned Love Experts John and Julie Gottman

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Married couple Dr. John Gottman and Dr. Julie Schwartz top the list of the most influential experts on understanding love relationships. Through their work with the Gottman Institute and the Gottman Love Lab, and their dozens of books, they have helped thousands of couples achieve marital stability and also know when to call it quits. John’s The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, first published in 1999, still tops bestseller lists. Their latest collaboration, Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict Into Connection, is a must-read roadmap for pushing through conflict and creating healthier communication.

It was an honor to conduct the below interview with this extraordinary couple, who have been married for 36 years.

Robin: This is not your first rodeo, as you’ve both been married before. How did you meet? 

John: We met at a coffee shop called the Pony Expresso. Julie walked in and I got up the courage to say, “Would you like to join me for a cup of coffee?” I loved the way she looked. She was wearing this amazing dress. And that night I dreamt about a tiger who had the same markings as that dress.

Julie: I was attracted to his green eyes. Our conversations just took off and were so much fun.


Robin: When did you begin working on Fight Right? 

Julie: We realized how important this was before COVID-19; we saw the country polarized. Everyone was splitting further apart and there was no dialogue which would have created more understanding and connection.

 
Robin: What do people fight about most often?

John: Most couples fight about absolutely nothing. Most fights arise out of things like watching TV and one person has the remote and the other person says something disparaging. Many fights arise out of failures to connect. Sometimes people are fighting on the surface of something that has a much deeper meaning.


Robin:  In life, are there any conversations that are better left alone? Do we always need to discuss everything? 

Julie: We actually don’t have to discuss everything. We have a five-step process that takes people from this sort of long-term festering emotional hurt. This refers to an internal deep and painful memory of a regrettable incident. In this five-step blueprint, they start by saying what they felt, selecting feeling items from a list and then describing their perception of the fight without criticism or blame. Then they each take responsibility for their part in it. In this blueprint, they don’t apologize at the beginning before they really understand the impact of the behavior on their partner.

John: Sometimes you haven’t apologized for the right thing because you didn’t understand the impact fully. It’s a very effective process for healing emotional injuries from the past that have really driven an invisible wedge between the two of you.

 
Robin: Do you feel people know how to resolve conflict without assistance? 

John: Many couples don’t know how. But most conflicts never get resolved, so it’s mostly not about conflict resolution. It’s about conflict management because 69 percent of all conflicts don’t get solved; they are perpetual. These may be things like personality traits your partner has that rub you the wrong way or long-standing issues around lifestyle differences, like spending or saving money. It has no resolution because it is based on these lasting differences in personalities and needs. Couples can either dialogue about these issues or feel stuck. Our six “dreams-within-conflict” questions help 87 percent of couples get to mutual understanding instead of gridlock on these perpetual issues.

 
Robin: One of the pieces of advice my husband and I received early on from well-meaning family members was, “Never go to bed angry." Does that seem correct?

John: it’s not a good idea to stay up into the wee hours rather than going to sleep and dealing with the issue when you’re rested and perhaps calmer. The big problem occurs when “flooding” happens, which is the state of being psychologically and physically overwhelmed during a late-night conflict. Then it’s better to take a break, calm down and go to bed, and get some rest, if you can.

Julie: When you feel deeply attacked and there's no way out, people will often move into "flight or fight" mode, in which the stress hormones of cortisol and adrenaline course through the body. As a result, they cannot think straight. They cannot hear well. It's a terrible state to be in.


Robin: What’s the proper way to handle these types of conflict?

Julie: Put your fight on pause. This idea may seem strange for couples who follow the adage "never go to sleep angry." But if one or both partners are "flooded," taking a break is the best way to keep a bad argument from getting worse. Say when you’ll come back and do that, so your partner won’t feel abandoned. And during the break, don’t think about the fight, because that will keep you flooded. Self soothe, distract yourself and do something relaxing that you enjoy.


Robin: What are some qualities or predictors for longevity in a relationship?

John: The most important thing is if your partner is upset, the world stops. I tell men to have a little notebook in their back pockets and when Julie is upset, I say “Talk to me" and I take notes.

Julie: Making repairs is important. Going to our partner when we blurted out the wrong thing or were interrupting too much and going to them and saying "I’m sorry. Let me say that over again." There are a lot of little repairs, and successful couples make repairs and try to do it as soon as possible. My favorite is saying, “I’m feeling defensive” instead of going defensive.

 
Robin: Is there a best way to utilize this book as a tool?

Julie: There are a million kinds of relationships, so it depends. If you’ve got people who fear fighting, then you introduce the book to your partner and read it together, perhaps out loud. If you’ve got a volatile partner, you might want to say “I want to find a way to be gentler and more compassionate with you. I know I haven’t been able to do that, and I want to learn how so I’m going to read this book and after I’m done if you want to read it, it’s yours.”

John: The first tool we teach is listening and validating. They use what we call “softened startup.” Each person needs to talk about their feelings using “I” statements and to talk about their positive need, what they DO want, not what they resent. The second tool is compromise and problem-solving. This is where persuasion comes in. Identify core needs and help partners to understand why it is a core need. They first discuss what they cannot compromise about and identify their areas of flexibility. The third tool is their dreams within conflict questions. What is the major dream behind each person’s position? They then honor each other’s dreams with dialogue, understanding that the acceptance of enduring personality differences is an important goal.


The interview was conducted via Zoom.

 
Do you believe couples should ever go to bed angry? Why or why not? Let us know in the comments below.